How can you tell if the saddle is causing problems?

I have been wondering about my saddle lately. Not sure what to do.

I know that white hairs are an indication of an ill-fitting saddle. I hardly rode Fanny last year, yet she had the odd white hair on her (she also had a few white hairs on her back when I got her). She still has those white hairs, and I dare say there are more now. But they seem to be more on her left side than her right. Could it be because she's mounted from the left? I usually dismount on the right.

I've been concerned that she's not happy with the saddle. Even though I find it comfy, I'm not convinced that she does. I have a treeless saddle - Barefoot Cheyenne - with the proper pad and all. I don't think she likes the girth, personally. We had it cinched so tight yesterday when we rode her, yet we still had major slippage with the saddle, especially the back end. From the rear, it looked like the back of the saddle was just about over her hip (sideways, not that far back on her)! I would be hard pressed to find a treed saddle (that I could feel secure in) that would fit her non-existent withers, so I prefer to stick with a treeless.

When we tighten the girth, she looks back at us and puts her nose right where the buckles are, like it's cutting into her. She used to pay no attention to us when we'd saddle her up and tighten the girth, but now she will look back. For a while, last year, she'd try to bite me when I tightened it, but she doesn't do that anymore. She has also started pawing the ground when the girth is tightened too. Not all the time, but I have noticed her do it once in a while.

I have been leaning toward a Rebecca treeless saddle (also called a Softride). They deal a lot with round horses. What I like is that they have the "V" or "Y" (whichever it is) rigging, so the "pressure" of the girth straps is on both front and back of the saddle, rather than one single strap over the withers.

Anyway...when we saddled Fanny up last night, she started to bite at the gate she was standing at (like a horse takes a nibble on a wooden fence), plus, when I would walk up by her face, she'd reach out for my hand and flap her lips at my hand. She didn't have her ears pinned back or appear to be trying to bite me, but she was obviously being mouthy in her gentle way. I think she was very unhappy, but I don't know if it's just because she wanted to go back to her field, or if she was in some discomfort. She did nicker when I got off her, which is a good sign, but she was a real struggle to ride. She REFUSES to go to one corner of the small paddock we were in, and as soon as you turn her in the direction away from that corner, she would pick up her pace to get away from it. If you lead her to that area, she'll go, but she is on total alert. There is a ravine a few hundred metres away from the paddock, with another paddock between her and the ravine. She has been in the field behind this small paddock too, so I don't know what she is so afraid of. She is afraid to go to the 'far' end of any of the fields we try to ride her in, and these fields are only a couple of acres, so it's not like it's a huge ten-acre field. I feel like I have no 'safe' place to ride!! Jason and Kathy suggested that I have one of their advanced riders (who also helps out during my riding lessons) come out and ride Fanny. I want to make sure the saddle isn't hurting her, first.

Any other signs of discomfort that a horse shows? Her sweat marks seem to be even. Occassionally I do see the odd twist to her hair, which I don't care for, but it may just be from trying to straighten the saddle when it slips.

Would love to hear your suggestions/comments!!

You are absolutely right...the saddle is not fitting her properly and she is telling you that when you cinch her up.

Stetson is the same way. I ended up have to spend a lot of money on a saddle just for him. A treed one mind you, but I needed something. Do you have any saddle fitters in your area? Fortunately, for me, I have one just 2 hours away how is actually a master saddler from Britian.

Something isn't right, you know that. But a treeless saddle shouldn't be uncomfortable on ANY horse unless, as you say, you do it up too tight. it may be your balance - when I recently let a friend ride Dancing the saddle kept almost going underneath it was so lopsided and she had to keep pulling it back. I never have to do that when I ride on it. Treeless saddles will go with you if you are not central.
If it was me I would borrow and try some other saddles and see what Fanny thinks of them. If she hates them all then she might be saying something about the rider but I think from what you say she is more concerned about the cinch than the saddle or you. Try a different cinch? see if she is the same when someone else saddles her instead of you - worse, better or no change?
She does tend to be hormonal doesn't she? is she only funny about the saddle when she is coming in season?
Is she a dumpling shape with a big belly? I used to have a horse that shape and the girth would slide forward into her elbows, there was nowhere else for it to sit and I had to get a girth with cutouts by the elbows.
just a few ideas to try!!

Thanks for the suggestions ladies!

I have been toying with the idea of a mohair girth. It's supposed to help with slippage, plus it has a bit of natural "give" to it. I think the girth I am using now is too long. The girth has a 'stay' on it that the straps go through before they go into the buckles. When we tighten it up, it is on the third tightest hole on the straps, and the buckles are very tight against the stay. It is extremely difficult to tighten up the girth any more because the stay and the buckles are so tight against each other. I should take a pic to show you. I've learned recently that the top of the girth should not go any further up her sides than the roundest part of her. It doesn't, but I'm wondering if it'd be even better if it was shorter. It appears to be right on her sides, at the fattest part of her.

Yes, Jackie, Fanny is VERY round!! Big belly underneath (looks bigger than it probably is because her legs are so short). She was in really good shape while at Jason and Kathy's, but she was still round. They said she is just built like that and will always look fat. I knew that, but it was nice to hear someone else say that she is just that shape. She will never look like a Thoroughbred, that's for sure!!

She is in and out of heat these days. Right now she appears to be out. Her "best friend" in the paddock is a huge 15.2hh paint, and he follows her around everywhere. Kind of annoying, actually. He carries on and cries and complains when we take her out of the paddock.

Hippie, I do have a few saddle fitters around. One guy developed his own line of treeless saddles, so maybe he could come take a look at her. I wish there was a treeless saddle fitter around that wasn't interested in pushing their own product though.

A lot of the slippage of the saddle is rider error, I'm sure, but part of it is her shape too. Even at Jason and Kathy's, their treed western saddles were slipping on her!! She has no withers.

Yeah, she does seem more concerned about being cinched up than being ridden. But I do wonder if the way she won't walk straight forward, but always wants to go at an angle, has something to do with what's going on under her. Of course, walking at an angle could also be due to my balance being even a little off. If the front of the saddle looks straight, yet the back of it isn't, that would confuse her too.

If the saddle is left a bit loose, so it can find it's natural position, it is further back than most people would say that this brand of saddle needs to be, but that's where it wants to go on her (Jason told me she has a long back, so I wonder if that's why it needs to be further back than other horses). Do I 'force' it to stay in the more forward position, or do I let it slide back to where it wants to sit? The girth doesn't slide into her elbows. She's usually got a few inches between girth groove and front legs, but maybe it needs to be more than that. I've never felt or seen girth galls.

I was "this" close to getting on her bareback while she grazed this morning. I even tied her rope to her halter, to make reins, in preparation. But then the owner of the paint got on him and came over to where we were, and I chickened out. I don't think Fanny would've cared much if I got on her. I was just going to sit on her and let her graze, which I think she would have agreed to. If I had a smaller (safer) enclosure to ride her bareback in, I'd do it, and see if she is happier to move and so on without a saddle on. I am tempted to buy a bareback pad and try it out. Actually, with the amount of bareback riding I'd be doing, I could just get on her bareback and not worry about a pad. With my padded bottom, I think her back would be fine I went through the motions of getting on her - jumping up against her side like I was going to jump on - and she didn't even lift her head to acknowledge that I was doing anything. Once I get more comfortable riding bareback during lessons, I'll get on her.

I studied her white hairs again today. Definitely more on her left side than her right. The right has the odd white hair, while the left side has white hairs here and there in the whole area that the saddle covers.

Could she be out of balance, or have one side weaker than the other? She does move easier in one direction than the other, that's for sure. But I've been told that horses are like that - it's like us being left handed or right handed.

hi cyndi Are the white hairs like on a roan horse or are they in solid blocks of white? Usually hen a saddle iscausing damage the white hairs are in patches and not mingled in with the coat. Just a thought. Also mares are much ore touchy about being girthed up so there may be an element of that. I have a torsion saddle which is very like your barefoot and it is less forgiving than a treed saddle when the rider isn't sitting straight, but it really does teach you to sit straight. Here are my experiences of girths with this type of saddle:neoprene seem to be itchy for the horse, the ones with the curve for the elbows work well.
the 'h' girth keeps the girth from digging in behind the ebow.
here are some links to websites shwing the types of girths I mean. http://www.dreamteamproducts.com/torsion-products-girths.php I use the curved leather one and my pony really likes it. http://www.elementalequine.co.uk/osshop/product_info.php?products_id=69 the h girth is expenive, i borrowed one and liked it but got the torsion cheaper off ebay.
I don't use my torsion so much now as I have my solution treeless with a gullet and that is easier to ride on. (Iake my daughter ride on the torsion now!)

Hi Fin.

I'm glad you mentioned the different ways that the white hairs show up. Her white hairs are intermingled with her coat, like a roan, but just in that one area. I think she has a small "patch" on her somewhere that I've seen (about the size of the fingernail on your little finger...or smaller), but I don't think it's anywhere where the saddle would sit. I'm glad to know that the white hairs that she has are not the "bad" kind.

Thanks for the links to those sites. I will check them out. The girth I have now is thick foam that is covered with a soft leather. It has elastic at both ends, by the buckles. It is the one that Barefoot recommends. I like when a saddle manufacturer carries all the accessories that you need. I'd like it even more if these accessories worked for your horse every time I hate having to do the trial and error thing, because so many different people are happy with so many different things! But if I want Fanny to be happy, I've go to do my best to make sure she's comfortable.

Wow, lots of info on those sites, Fin! Thanks!!

Something isn't right. Any saddle, be it treed or not you should not have to make into a gurdle to make it stay secure on your horse. When it's tightened that much it inhibits their ability to breathe properly. I personally prefer a girth/cinch with elastic. It can expand a little when the horse inhales and his ribcage expands.
Try getting a breast collar. A lot of treeless saddles need one because they can slide. I use one on my bareback pads I have.

Also about girths some horses have what is known as a "flat" spot on their belly (like this guy http://equisearch.com/horses_care/health/anatomy/correct_conformation_clinic_800.jpg )The girth naturally falls into this spot. The rare horse does not (I see a lot of arabs who don't like this one http://cdn-write.demandstudios.com/upload//5000/400/80/3/55483.jpg see how his belly and "flat spot" look more round even though he is streched ) they can benefit from being girthed farther back. Some saddles have rigging to accomodate this such as this Y rigging on this tucker trail saddle http://www.myhorse.com/assets/Gear/Tack/asset_upload_file258_9579.jpg or even this one with two slots you can choose from to put the rigging http://www.horsebacktrailriderblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/1pad-placement.jpg . It sounds like Fanny might be one of those. Maybe you could take a conformation shot of her?

As a rule of thumb I would want the saddle about 2-4 fingers behind the shoulder blade so it does not inhibit motion.

Usually with the hairs a big patch means theres been damage but a hair here and there could be her natural coat pattern. I know another horse her colour (seal brown) that has white hairs. Every year he gets more and more.

I would honestly go to the treeless saddle fitter. You are lucky to have more than one! We don't even have any for 2 hours here. Explain to him that you want to know how treeless saddles fit and maybe even let him try some of his and ask him to explain to you why they fit better. You may get an idea from them on how treeless should fit.

Sydney, I am a very visual learner, so I really appreciate the photos you included in your message!!

If the saddle is left loose enough to fall into a natural spot on Fanny, it sits well behind her shoulder. Some Barefoot users will say you can have the saddle quite far up, but I prefer it back, and again, that's where it wants to go.

I know of a treeless saddle guy that is 1.5 hours away, and then our trainer is a Bob Marshall dealer, so he would know too. When I used my saddle at their place, they never commented on the fit or anything, so I'm assuming it was okay as far as they were concerned.

I really like the "Y" rigging on saddles. Hopefully, my next saddle will have that. The one I am looking at buying comes with the "Y" rigging. A breastcollar and crupper are included in the saddle price too.

I would be worried that she doesn't like it. I have found that barefoot saddles do have a tendency to slip and move, if the saddle is moving a lot whilst you are riding then that could cause white hairs and the horse being uncomfortable. Are there also white hairs under where the stirrup bars sit?

I have a horse who has remembered pain from saddles and always bites when being tacked up, unless she is occupied with treats and forgets to bite,lol. A nice sheepskin girth seems to help, and an equitex saddle pad which is about 2 inches of memory foam helped so she cant actually feel the saddle,lol.

I have another horse who is very sensitive with girths and can only have canter or no elastic girths with a sheepskin girth sleeve, otherwise she jumps when you do up the girth.

The christ lammfelle girths are lovely and soft, but not advisable if your saddle slips.

Have a look at Sensation saddles as well, they are very nice, fantastic quality and made in canada

Hi Nags!

As much as I want to like my saddle, I have just had a bad feeling about it for a long time. The saddle itself is nice, but there's this niggling in the back of my mind that Fanny's not happy with it. I've been talking to a couple of Barefoot dealers and they both have differing opinions as to what I should do I am one confused girl. Neither of them are wrong, I suppose - they both do what works for them - but it sure does make things harder for me.

No, I haven't noticed any white hairs under the stirrup bars, but that's something I will make a point of checking now, to be sure that there isn't anything there.

I don't think that Fanny has any bad memories of being saddled...unless it's something that I am doing without being conscious of it. The breeder that I got her from is the most sweet and gentle lady I've ever met, and she's the one who started Fanny. She used a treed English saddle. I believe that when Fanny was at the trainer's this past spring, she was saddled gently too.

I've thought of getting a sheepskin sleeve for the girth, but I've read in the treeless group that sheepskin isn't the best if I'm already having slippage issues. I've been told to try a Thinline girth (which I did try, but I can't afford one at $299!!) or a mohair one.

I didn't know that Sensation saddles were made in Canada!

Sydney...if you want to see a pic of Fanny from the side, to see how she's shaped underneath, the best pic I can find is in my album in the yahoo bitless group, under Fanny Dell. Kathy is on her, but you can still see what her underside looks like. Please let me know what you think.

I discovered another pic that might be helpful. I just downloaded it in my photo album in the yahoo bitless group.

In the pic, if you click on "large" at the top left corner, for viewing options, you can see the smattering of white hairs (can't see them in the "original" pic that comes up). I took the pic so I could show the Barefoot dealers what the Large size pommel insert looks like (one dealer said it was the right size, one said it was too small), fit-wise, on Fanny's non-existent withers. Just below and to the right of the pommel insert is where you can see the hairs. You can also get an idea of where her girth groove is.

I sure hope you all can help me!

It is hard to tell from those pictures because from both she is still kind of on an angle but I am going to say yes, she doesn't have a very prominent flat spot. It's kind of all sloping towards her barrel, not really flat. More round, which is her breed and conformation. You can't help that but maybe looking for a rigging that sits a bit further back can help you as well as using a breast collar for now. Both are cheap.

Where the white hairs are is unusual. Is the rigging on your saddle stiff? Does it press into her side before you even do it up? Once it's done up? That is the only thing I could think that would create pressure there. It would have to be pressing into her a fair bit.

Thanks for your input!!

I don't know that there is any pressure on her in that area before the saddle is even done up. My concern with the rigging, right from the start, is that when you tighten up the girth, the "rigging strap" (underneath the 'skirt' of the saddle) causes a huge indentation. I've been told that it's normal, but I know I wouldn't want that digging into me, even with 'sheepskin', leather and a pad between my 'belt' and me.

Although my saddle is popular amongst owners of round horses, I am not convinced that it's the right saddle for her. I would like to try out their (Barefoot) bitless bridle though What are the chances that I'd be unhappy with two of their products?