Hacking out in bitless

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Hacking out in bitless

Post by poghag on Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:36 pm

I seem to remember there are legal implications... no third party insurance if something happens and you have no bit. As someone who does a lot of hacking, with a horse who has been known to utterly take off, bitted or not, do I need to be wearing a bridle on over the bitless to cover me if we have an "incident" with a bystander or such?

(I know this makes me sound like a pretty poor horsewoman - I'm doing loads of slow work in the school so that horsey listens to ME, not a bit - so we're getting there, we're just not there yet!).

Also fun rides and such - do I need to bit-up over the top for those? He gets very high-energy in those situations... any suggestions?

PS I am somebody who was greatly cheered to hear that an ex-racer who was unstoppable in everything, was totally controllable in a cross-under. Hired a cross-under for my boy, a Nurtural, spent ages making sure I followed instructions on fitting to a tee, longlined and schooled in it, all seemed dandy, but on our first hack got very much run away with (my fault, I shouldn't have let him gallop in the first place, looking back, but thought I might as well put it to the test; I tried to turn, rather than stop, and he just flattened, set his neck and accelerated).

Is the answer to stick to slow work and just gradually over time allow him to pick up with the speed work, always bringing him back down again before he decides to take control?

All hints and tips very welcome - I'm new to bitless.

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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by Sydney on Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:28 pm

Are you in Canada?

I am very lucky to have talked to my insurance and they had no problem once I explained with my bitless. Make sure you call your insurance company. 95% of what I do is out on the open trail. I got a round pen for fenced in riding or I trailer someplace. No fun for me to run around in circles in an arena lol!

As long as your horse has a bit on, not even in his mouth I believe it's considered to be bitted. Maybe Zoe can explain more. When I was talking to her husband Gerry at the royal he said something about it to me.
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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by bohohorse on Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:08 am

Hi PH,

Glad you brought this up - might have to make it a sticky!

There is NO law in the UK saying that you have to be bitted on the roads and don't let anyone tell you that there is (ask them to provide a link to the Act that says it..)

The Highway Code says that you should have a 'bridle and saddle' but a bit is not specified. Even this is only in their guidelines. However, this is what insurance companies will use as a guide if there is any issue about contributory negligence so it is always wise (IMHO) to be correctly kitted out on the roads. I ride in a leather bitless bridle, a saddle, hat, reflective gear etc.

Insurance companies - there is an urban myth that does the rounds every now and again saying that you are not insured if you are bitless. All the decent insurance companies are absolutely fine with bitless - I rang NFU to ask them direct and they thought it was funny that I even had to ask (the advisor on the phone said 'if people think that you need a bit to be safe then then they just don't understand how horses work... big kisses to that man cheers). If you want to be absolutely sure, do ring your insurers. I have heard that one of the cheap crap companies (I don't know, but I suspect it may be the one with 'E' in the title) is insisting that horses are bitted all the time even when led... but then they are a notoriously cr*p company who are always looking for excuses not to pay out!

It's worth mentioning that some of my Parelli friends tell me that some UK insurers make a definition between 'training aids' and bridles so they don't like people riding in halters on the road. One of those little quirks, easy enough to get a cheap webbing or beta bitless bridle to ride out in on the roads to be on the safe side.

So don't worry. Very Happy Bitless hack away!

Training wise - that merits a post on its own - I'll have to come back later!
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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by FlorayG on Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:32 am

It makes my blood boil, this 'have to be bitted to be safe' rubbish. If I ever come to court over it I will fight it to the death. I have more 'control' bareback with a halter and a second horse in the other hand than has anyone else I know with a horse near where I live, with all their gear- today two women on horses that must have taken half an hour just to tack up couldn't get past us in a gateway and then were concerned that if they left me I wouldn't be able to close the gate! Evil or Very Mad
Actually Poghag your problem may come, if there is an accident, from the fact that you know your horse takes off out of control bitted or not - the law will see that as more like contributory negligence than not having a bit. More training is what you need, but then you know that


Last edited by FlorayG on Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:36 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Forgot to add something!)
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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by lightertouch on Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:29 am

My understanding of UK insurance policies is the same as Bohohorse - bitless is usually fine, however halters/headcollars on public roads/tracks may not be. Always best to phone your insurance co. to ask tho.
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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by poghag on Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:01 pm

FlorayG wrote: More training is what you need, but then you know that

Please what does anyone suggest? Responding to body cues to halt in the school seems a world away from stopping a galloping horse when he's flat out.

We've always done a considerable bit of speed work in the past, with no concerns... and he used to steer wherever I looked, and whoa when I merely sat up... he just totally and utterly bolted in the bitless.

So please, what more training can I do??? Any suggestions gratefully received.

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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by Sydney on Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:45 am

Bolting is the most dangerous thing a horse can do in my opinion. Running blindly. Theres a difference between a bolt and a spook and run for a bit though.

I've stopped bolters before with this method. I do not suggest it for the faint of heart.
This one mare I rode used to bolt regularly. She got me pretty hurt once. Tore my rotator cuff in my left shoulder and it's never been the same since.
You have to have a lot of open space for this. I waited until she bolted, which she did about 5-10 minutes into our ride when I asked for the canter and I took my reins (split reins with the popper on the end) and started going over and under and making her run faster and faster and faster around this twenty acre field. Every time she tried to slow down I would over and under with my reins again. About the fifth time around the field she was begging to stop but I kept her going another two times. Finally when I said woah she did just that. Stopped and panted and our ride was done for that day. Next time I rode her she tried it again and I did the exact same thing but for not as long. She hasn't bolted since and that was over 5 years ago I did that. Her only vice.

Did it a couple months ago with a carriage horse that bolted with me. Next time I drove him I made him run and run and run around the track and he has been good as gold since though I would never trust him. That is just his personality though.
Like I said, not for the faint of heart.
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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by Jo on Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:00 pm

thats interesting Sydney because I would be tempted to use that method too.... however I have been fortunate so far and only had one grumpy pony bolt on me and a very tall hedge and a lot of head turning stopped him.
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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by poghag on Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:05 pm

Thanks Sydney. He's not a regular bolter - has only done it 3 times with me over the last couple of years. The first time he was being chased by an alsatian (I couldn't steer and he was heading for a main road and I confess I baled out), the second time a swan took off aside of him when hacking along a canal path and flew about 6 feet from his head throughout his gallop - amazingly he stopped then before wiping out half a dozen cyclists (but I'm not sure he would have done without wearing a combination Myler I let him run his fear off then to be honest, pulled on the reins with all my might... I'm sorry, but I think he'd have caused a major accident if I'd had the bitless in then), then this most recent time when he realised he could set his neck against me and give me no steering in the bitless. Only the last was a "naughty" run rather than a bolt in fear, but his speed and acceleration were the same.

I'm not averse at all to trying your tactic, but our only galloping track is a huge circular path around the edge of some marshes, and this was the circular path I was trying to steer him around when he took off in the bitless. I quite simply could not steer him around the circle - he dived for the little exit path and nearly came down in the process. Plus - I'm on last warnings out on the marshes (not allowed to "school", not allowed to gallop, and I occasionally let myself sneak a little of both in... once I've checked for rangers).

Very interesting tactic, not sure I can work it in this situation. Thank you Sydney - I will file that one my mind for future reference.

Any other suggestions folks? How to school a horse so he might listen once he's decided not to tune in when in gallop?

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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by bohohorse on Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:30 pm

I've just posted on your other thread so I'll not add to this one too much for now as it will end up a duplication! Suffice it to say, for me, safety involves three things:
Training - the most important
Equipment - common sense things like a hat, high vis etc
Awareness - and this means, knowing whats around you, being able to anticipate problems and knowing when to not start that particular battle on that particular day.

To be honest, all you can do on a bolting horse is damage limitation. Your mission is to get right to grassroots and eliminate the things that are triggering the bolting i.e. the overreactions to fear and the lack off attentiveness to your aids. I'd do ALL that you can to stop that bolt ever happening as every time he does it it's becoming more habitual to him - thankfully it's not been that often but it's been often enough for him to believe that it's a valid option for him.
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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by Sydney on Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:04 pm

If what you say is true and your horse is spooking at something and then running off you have a spooking problem, not a bolting problem. Treat the cause, not the symptoms.

I would try and address the spooking problem and I bet you the bolting will disappear. John Lyons has a lot of good "spook in place" exercises that teach a horse not to run. I suggest checking his perfect horse site for the article.

Chances are, especially with repeat spookers they are scared of the riders reaction and not the scary object. So say for instance your horse spooks at a plastic bag on the trail but hes fine with them when you are schooling hes not saying "Horse eating demon bag!" hes probably thinking "rider grabbing my face when she/he sees a bag".

With Indigo I find if I pick up my reins and have contact with her face out on the farm she spooks. She absolutely hates riders that are on her face all the time. She crow hops, spooks and acts really stupid. If I ride on the buckle I get small spooks and maybe a jump ahead but nothing more than that. Try not to be so quick in reacting and trying to stop your horse next time. Let him/her have a few strides before you grab both reins. It may make the difference.


Last edited by Sydney on Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:09 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : forgot something)
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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by FlorayG on Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:37 am

Yep I would agree with Sydney there - your horse is not bolting, he's running away from your reaction to his spook. The feedback you get from that is amazing and you don't realise you are causing it.
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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by poghag on Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:33 pm

Interesting. I'm really taking your advice on board and thank you for it.

But I have to admit that your posts make me feel as if I've somehow come across as new to riding, not new to bitless.

I've sat plenty of his spooks with neither reins, nor stirrups at times. I've never felt any need to "grab" the reins. I'm not an anxious rider, not by any stretch of the imagination, and I regret it if I have come across as someone who "grabs at their horse's face" at the prospect of a spook, because that would be far from the truth. When he took off chased by the dog, and the swan, I let him run until I felt it was prudent to take a feel. Being run away with really does not worry me whatsoever, I just feel concern for him; I wouldn't try to grab at him.

When he ran off with the bitless we were already comfortably at a pretty fast pace, so this was no reaction to me, I believe.

We have done, and continue to do, a good amount of spook-busting so hopefully that will help. We spend a huge amount of quality, fun, bonding time together and I'm doing my horse an injustice if I've ever come across as a nervous rider with a frightened horse.

Thank you very much for your advice. Sorry if I've been a little over-sensitive flower!

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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by bohohorse on Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:54 am

Lol... I went to a Western show last week and took Z in for a individual show class. He decided to give me a load of 'leave a message... I'll get back to you' attitude. Laughing We stumbled through it and came out. The organiser sad to me kindly: 'Oh you must come to one of our clinics and learn what all these things like moving the shoulders really means'. I had to laugh... all she had to go on was what she'd seen so she didn't MEAN to be patronising... but it was annoying at the time!

But then following my own advice, if he was happy to ignore me then, then we probably needed more work on it at home... so we've been doing more of that! ( I still ain't going to the clinic though Laughing )

Actually Sydney's post made me think: when I see something 'scary' ahead, do I focus on it...? I think I do. And the horse knows what we are really feeling, even if we are trying to mask it. Note to self... silent
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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by Sydney on Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:30 am

If I see something scary, and Indigo or any other horse I am riding sees it too I look at it. The length I focus on it depends on the horses initial reaction to it. For instance riding Indigo down the road shes got this thing for the neighbor kid on the dirt bike. She could care less any other time. She sees him in the distance in the field. She starts staring and tensing up. I glance at it, look real long and hard for about 10 seconds (that is long because she was deciding how to react which would have been a crowhop like usual) then I look away and keep on going. It took her attention off of him for a bit until she had to take another double take but she didn't stop that time.
Think of it like the lead mare in a herd. A yearling sees something off in the distance that really isn't that significant. His eyes are wide and hes staring and snorting at it. The lead mare spots him and joins him to see whats wrong. She sees what hes snorting at and doesn't think it's scary(lets say it's a man walking a dog in the distance, shes seen it a bunch of times before) so she walks away and by doing so says theres no threat. Chances are the yearling would do the same too.
So the answer to that one is don't focus on something more than your horse gages it to be. If hes a little leery of plastic bags and theres one on the ground glance at it only a little shorter than your horse would and then completely put it out of your mind. If it's a deer and your horse is terrified of them look good and long and hard and then ask your horse to keep going. If he has to stop again look at it again and then ask him to keep going. The lead mare would do the same.
I spend a lot of time watching the horses lol!
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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by FlorayG on Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:29 am

Hey poghag what you don't know about any of us - I was riding, training and teaching others for forty years before I discovered what was wrong with my riding and why horses were not at their best with me - so I'm as 'new to riding' as anyone. We're trying to convey stuff that isn't in any book and with very few instructors, you don't come across AT ALL as a novice but when you get really into bitless you start to question everything else and you learn a whole new way to ride - or you give it up and go back to a bit. We're trying to explain a concept, never easy in words, that isn't generally recognised in horse riding. Cyndi 'got it' (I think!) after a huge correspondence - that's why I asked if anyone could help directly, a sight is worth a thousand words. No - one is trying to diss what you know, only asking you to question it, stick with us!!! Laughing
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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by Sydney on Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:35 am

Yeah didn't add that. I never meant that you specifically grabbed the horses face that is just something I find very common with repeat bolters and spookers. 90% of the time it is the horses fear of having his face/mouth tugged on. The other can be anything. Seat, saddle pain when a horse does anything more than a canter, physical problems that you can't see etc.
I never intended to say that you were making your horse spook but with the number of confirmed bolters and spookers I have worked with these are some of the conclusions I have come to. But like any horse and any rider there is no one size fits all remedy.
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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by poghag on Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:43 pm

Aaarrrghghgh! Sorry Sydney and FlorayG; I knew I was too hasty in posting my sulky little "but I DO know how to ride my horse" reply - no I don't, not without a bit and of course I was questioning my riding with a bit before that, and although I've worked on various yards over various years, he is my first horse as an adult (and the first horse I've explored "natural" horsemanship with) and everything was suddenly very different (I had partnered him for 2 years before buying him and I was surprised at the changes in attitude I underwent as soon as I felt fully responsible for him; hence learning how to do at least the beginnings of groundwork, shoeless and bitless within the first year and no eventing since his buy-day and probably not again for a very long time). I'm totally and utterly at the beginning of my path and I have so many many questions. I truly want to follow this path (a very very distant goal being bridleless riding) - but I'm going to need much help (and I'd always considered myself a tiny bit competent before this!) and this forum is my main source for it.

So thank you everyone for helping me, I will try to find Cyndi's story, is it on this forum somewhere? And I think Bohohorse might be within range if we could maybe stay the night. In the meantime I'm pretty much reading reading reading as that's all I have to go on.

It's tough! Having jumped on and had a great time for 30 years (and I did shedloads of bareback, reinless and stirrupless as a kid, and still a fair old bit now, so I haven't got an atrocious seat or a reliance on contact, but it's bloomin' hard feeling like a total beginner again not knowing if what I do is OK - and I'm sorry if I get oversensitive! I'm trying so hard to learn but can't learn fast enough!!)

Have to go to work now!

Thanks for helping me guys. Sorry for my childish strop! and big respect to all of you.

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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by Cyndi on Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:05 am

Hi Pohag.

My long journey in this gentle horsemanship technique is far from over, but there are bits and pieces of it throughout this forum Smile The most recent is in the "what saddle do you use" topic (in the "saddles and other equipment" discussion), where I have been getting loads of help in how to stay in the saddle while trotting.

You mentioned that you feel like a total beginner again. I am a beginner! I've never had formal riding lessons, so this is all totally new to me...and exciting cheers

I didn't ride as much as you did as a child, but I rode whenever I could, whenever we were visiting someone with horses. Fanny is my very first horse, and I just turned 40 in February. Like you, I am trying to do everything as natural as possible, so good advice is hard to find close by. However, I have found a great riding instructor, and the people in this forum have been excellent and patient with me while I learn.

I totally understand how your attitude changed when you purchased your horse! Someone once said that maybe I should've leased a horse before I bought one, but I know that I would have felt "restricted" by doing that. Having my own horse allows me to train her any way I want, without getting criticism or a slap on the wrist from the owner if I'm not doing the things the way they want it done.

Just a warning about my posts...they tend to be very long! I try to keep them short, but I just can't help it silent
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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by poghag on Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:37 pm

Thanks Cyndi. I shall explore the forum for your other posts.

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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by fin on Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:13 pm

hi poghag things couldn't be more different for me. My lovely little pony was no trouble in his bit and is the same bitless and it wouldn't enter his head to bolt, too much effort required for that. When I bought a bitless bridle i had no worries about controling him. (I'd made a bitless for my old pony and it had worked really well so I was happy to buy a proper one for my new pony)

The only thing I have noticed is that it is not so easy for me to 'keep him together' when schooling as it was in a bit. He tends to go more on the forehand. I think that transferring to bitless does reveal weaknesses in the rider's position that could be covered up when using a bit. I have had my instructress help me and I am beginning to get the results bitless that I did when I used the bit. The only difference is that I ache more and have to concentrate more on my riding.

I am really impressed by your courage and deterrmination to go bitless with the problems presented by your horse. I hope you come to an understanding that works for both of you and think that your horse is blessed by an owner who thinks so much about doing the right thing. Good luck on your journey. look forward to hearing how things go for you.
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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by Sydney on Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:12 pm

I think that transferring to bitless does reveal weaknesses in the rider's position that could be covered up when using a bit.

A wile ago Zoe had me answer a question from a lady who bought a nurtural bridle. She could get her horse "on the bit" with a bit but failed when she tried with the bitless. The difference here is with a bit you can force a horses head onto the vertical (or on the bit Razz) but with a bitless a horse can lean because it does not force him with pain. You need to learn how to engage your horses hind end and achive proper collection, not just force him to bend at the poll.

It takes a lot more practice but very achievable. If you know how to properly collect your horse but hes having problems (a lot of ottb's do) get a chiropractor out.
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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by FlorayG on Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:27 am

Poghag (where did that name come from?) you're on your way. You can admit you have discovered the bit was actually doing all the things you thought you were doing - because you can't do them bitless yet.
I think Cyndi's 'story' is mostly on our Yahoo chat page - in a nutshell, she'd had a LOT of people tell her to 'get control' and 'be master' of poor Fanny, and we all told her to let go control and let the horse be the friend and partner she really wanted. Is that so Cyndi? And as that was what she wanted all along, it works for her!
But it's really hard to fly in the face of received wisdom, especially when all your friends still do it the 'other' way. I don't ride out with most of my friends now because I can now see the distress in their horses that they refuse to see when they are hauling on the reins. And they all think . well. it's OK for her isn't it, her horse is so quiet anyway, MY horse would never behave as quiet as that in a string halter... Rolling Eyes
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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by Sydney on Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:42 am

Always have extra bitless bridles around. A lot of people are interested if you show them and have one avail to try Wink
I ride and train a lot of horses young and old. I would say out of all of them ONE is placid. I like hotter horses. Like Indigo. Everyone sees her on the ground and shes as sweet as pie. Ride her and the game is on. She wants to run and act silly and get rid of that energy she has, sometimes in a more explosive way than I wish but I love her anyway.
I can ride Indigo in any bridle or halter because of the way she is trained, not the equipment. I choose the bitless bridle I have because it gives me precise cues that I am not capable of teaching her at this point in my riding career (bridleless anyone?). Early last summer I went for a 4 hour bareback ride through ditches, galloping through fields etc in a really thick padded stable halter. Nothing harsh or controlling about that. I just happened to forget my bridle at home and wanted to ride.
She knows the word "woah" to stop plus rein and seat cues. She knows "easy" and seat cues as a means of slowing down and gee and haw for left and right as well as seat and leg cues. They are really not hard to teach a horse voice commands but a lot of riders do not use them. I've become accustomed to them because I drive. Easy and woah are my two favorite They can go a long way when using a bitless bridle.
The most important thing a carriage horse can learn is the word WOAH with no rein cues to enforce it. I think that should be true for riding horses. You never know when you are going to have to use it.
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Re: Hacking out in bitless

Post by fin on Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:38 am

Yesterday it was really really windy and as I tacked up I did have a moment when I wondered if I should put the bit in for safety. But you have to have the courage of your convictions so off we went bitless, dancing down the lane on 'windy legs' Yes, a vanner can piaffe, as I found out when we encountered a huge streamer of haylage wrapper flapping off a barbed wire fence, but he seemed more confident in his bitless and he didn't pull me as he used to in is bit.
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