How far would you drive to go see your horse?

I had an absolutely horrible experience yesterday when I went to see Fanny!! I might talk about it more in another message, when I don't feel sick talking about it. Fanny and I are "fine". The incident involves the boldness of a total stranger.

Because of what happened yesterday, I am once again contemplating moving Fanny to where I took some Parelli training last spring. It is all so confusing to my wee bit of a brain. Despite not being totally gung-ho on Parelli, I love the facility and the way things are done there. At least I'd be surrounded by like-minded people.

My question, as the subject heading indicates, is how far would you drive to see your horse if the facility was "worth it"? It is a half hour away, and costs more than $100 more than where I am now. The upside is that the people there all practice natural horsemanship, there is an indoor arena, the horses are in a herd environment and have lots of hilly property to explore, the horses are out 24/7 unless the weather is stormy or very cold, and I'd have access to a Level 3 (or close to it) Parelli student who is also a certified Centered Riding coach.

Any thoughts??!

Personally, i don't go for Parelli. I would be wary of a place where it is all Parelli (or any other system), as they may insist you do things their way where I am sure you will find some things you would rather not. But then, you get that at any facility, which is why I rent a field and do without! I would go a long way for my horse to be happy, but make sure it is for Fanny's benefit you are thinking of moving and not yours. And whatever this person said or did, we are always on your side!!!!

I'm so sorry you've been upset Cyndi You can talk about it when you are ready or not at all - we don't mind! Echo what Florayg said - we support you! Huges hugs ((( )))

The new place sounds great as long as you don't feel you HAVE to follow Parelli and they aren't going to brow beat you... ( I sometimes feel like Parelli people are a bit like born again Christians... they want to know if you've been 'saved' and look at you rather pityingly when you say you don't do it...) The main thing really is that you don't get hassled, wherever you go. The facilities sound amazing... and if they are nice and you think you can trust them...

Distance wise... well that's up to you. I don't like to be reliant on a car so I planned my life so that me, work, my husbands work and my horse are all within a 6 mile radius and I bike everywhere. But then in teeny wee England I can do that. If my circumstances were different though and it was truly a brilliant yard then I wouldn't mind a longer journey. Hey, you can get audio broadcasts on the Equine Studies Institute website - you could even spend your car journey productively

I am very sorry to hear that you had a bad experience at your barn Cyndi! I hope you are okay.

I am currently not happy with my boarding facility but that is another story in its own and it is all my fault anyways...

You need to do what you think is right. If you and Fanny are not doing well, you need to move. It may cost you more, it may be a longer drive but if Fanny is as important to you as I think she is, then it is worth it.

This facility that you are thinking of moving to sounds great. My question is though, since you are not Parelli gung ho, will this create problems for you? I know at my barn, I am the bitless barefoot hippie that is absolutely crazy for not believing in shoes and bits. Whatever, but it does make it uncomfortable for me to be there sometimes. Thank gawd I am done boarding there in a couple of weeks.

Listen to your heart and gut. They generally know what to do. Keep us posted as to what you decide! Hugs from me!

Thanks ladies!

The thing I don't like about Parelli is that they seem so commercialized. I don't disagree with the groundwork exercises they do, as they are similar to many other NH trainers. I just don't care for all the levels and tests and 'prizes' for moving up. I suppose it's their way of giving people goals to reach with their horses. I dunno.

I will try to be brief with what happened yesterday. It wasn't "at the barn", but close. I've mentioned before that in order to access the riding trails, I have to ride down the road a bit (couple hundred metres). Yesterday I led Fanny down the road (she did very well, despite her 'herd' whinnying for her non-stop), to the driveway that leads to the trail. The driveway is right next to the neighbour's house, and when she saw us coming she came out to meet us. I'd heard that she was looking for someone to ride with, so I was looking forward to meeting her.

There is a row of cedars between her house and the driveway I was on (it's a grass 'road' that leads to fields), so the neighbour comes out of her house and starts talking to us. That threw Fanny off, as she couldn't really see the lady through the trees. The neighbour's name is Angie. She walked right up to us and started petting Fanny. One of the first things she said was, "You sure are a brave lady, walking down the road!". Well, I have no choice but to go on the road if I plan to use the trails. As soon as she said that I got this little niggling feeling that this wasn't going to go well. She had no problem saying exactly what was on her mind. She questioned the length of the lead rope, and the lack of control such a long lead offers, as well as having slack in the rope, as opposed to holding the lead right under Fanny's chin.

I tried to excuse myself and Fanny a couple of times, and Angie just kept saying, "Oh, I'll walk with you!". I wanted to just turn around and go the same way we came, but she "insisted" that we cut through a field so that we don't have to walk on the road as much (which maybe saved us 30 metres). By this time, Fanny was getting pretty upset. There was this strange lady hanging around us, talking non-stop, her mini donkeys in a pen nearby, her two horses standing around, and across the ravine was Fanny's 'herd' whinnying and carrying on, looking for her.

Fanny started to circle around me, and I was trying to get her settled, and Angie said, "She doesn't respect you. You have to do this...", then she stepped in, grabbed Fanny's lead right under her halter, and proceeded to jerk on it to "gain Fanny's respect". I was so shocked. I just wanted to get out of there. I struggled with Fanny for a bit, trying to get her attention by backing her up, but she wasn't responding well, so Angie stepped in again and grabbed the lead and jerked it and then pushed back while jerking, to make Fanny back up. I could not believe her boldness! I know she was trying to help, but it sure wasn't what I needed. I was upset and I'm sure Fanny could sense that, so it only made matters worse. We finally got up near the road and Angie asked me if I wanted her to go get a chain to wrap over Fanny's nose so that I would have better control on the road. I pretended not to hear her and just kept walking. I got Fanny up on the road and she settled down enough that I could once again have some slack in her lead. She was no problem walking on the road. She was still scared and anxious to get home, and wanted to rush home, but I had a 'stick' with me and bobbed it up and down in front of her to keep her pace slower.

I got Fanny back to her field, quickly got in the car and cried all the way home. Once I got home, I cried some more. I felt like a total failure.

I know I have to work on teaching Fanny how to lead nicely. In her familiar surroundings, she will follow on a loose lead like a dog, but I can only "test" her when we are out in unfamiliar surroundings, and that can obviously turn into a disaster, as I had a taste of yesterday.

So...having bored, yet amazed all of you with my lack of leadership with my horse, you can see why being at the Parelli facility will benefit me. I need a mentor because I am getting nowhere on my own. Maybe if I had a few years of experience under my belt I would feel confident enough to be on my own, but right now I really need someone with experience to guide me along and tell me where I'm going wrong. Maybe I'll even see if Fanny can board with my riding instructor for a while, since she'll be going there for two months anyway. It's even further away than the Parelli barn though.

Just a side note...remember the riding instructor I went to ONCE last fall, and never went back? The one who told me to kick the horse as hard as I could, and to pull on the reins/bit as hard as I could because her horses were used to that? She is Angie's instructor!!! Any surprise why Angie was so forceful??!!

So now you know. I have felt nauseous for most of the day, just thinking about yesterday's events.

You still "on my side", or are you with Angie and my growing list of horsepeople who think I am totally uncapable of being a horse owner?

People like that, honestly. I've dealt with a lot of people and seen a lot people get upset by ones like Angie and the best thing is to approach them plainly and say "Look, I really appreciate your help but I have an instructor helping me with these things and I need to experience them on my own"
I've seen it work more than once. Since you already stated she went to your old instructor I would have hated to see the result if you had gone there and adapted the same techniques.
The worst recent experience I had with people like this was in the summer. It was with a vet. Indigo maimed herself, as usual and my regular vet was in Guelph but did call me on his cell in person to say he was very sorry he could not make it out and that his vet that does his emergencies was also away. I had no choice but to take Indigo to the one vet clinic.
This vet is notorious for his good vet skills and wonderful facility but absolutely no bedside manner whatsoever.
So I got her there, and she was her usual self just bleeding like a stuck pig, but calm as could be. The vet was dealing with another horse so the assistant washed Indigos leg and commented on how it was so nice to have a horse that doesn't try and "high five" your face if you know what I mean lol. She was petting Indigo and Indigo gave her a few half hearted licks and just settled into standing there looking pathetic.
So anyway the flies are real bad that day. Indigo had lots of fly spray on and finally the vet comes to her. He says "I'm going to take off the bandage and if it is still bleeding I am going to try and tie off the vein" and up until this point Indigo was standing perfectly still. I know she could sense that I did not like this vet and that he was being rough and she is not a horse you have to be rough with, ever. She starts dancing around and swatting her tail around and carrying on. Even his assistant says something she is like "I cleaned this horses leg and she stood like a complete angel not even a move out of her" but he insists on tranquilizing her. I am really against it unless it's necessary. I told him let me put more fly spray on her and calm her down for a minute. Nope, he practically shoves me out of the way and tranquilizes her. I was soooooo mad. I've never had to tranquilize her. She gets her teeth done twice a year from my regular vet, whom she absolutely loves and never once has she had to be sedated.
Anyway he finally takes the bandage off and exclaims "Oh I guess I should have checked it before sedating her, it's clotted and healed up" So then we get the bill while Indigo is leaning all doped up in one of the stalls there and I see the shot of atravet on the bill. I wasn't going to say anything and I bit my tongue and right before I was going to pay I spoke up and said "you know that tranquilization was not nessesary. Your assistant and myself said that I don't think I should be charged for it" he looked at his assistant and then at me and said fine and took it off. I would have been kicking myself today if I hadn't said anything. I am glad I did because a lot of people get overcharged and unnessesary fees from this vet.

If you are not comfortable with the methods or people behind the methods are you going to be happy there? Make sure it's a place you are going to learn above all things.
Personally I like Parellis methods but I hate their system. It's not about the horses anymore when you have to pay that much money. It's all a way to get rich if you ask me. I have met Pat and Linda in person and wile they do love their horses I believe they love their money and luxury a little bit more. I would rather live on a small farm and go out every morning at 6 am to feed my horses, no matter the weather than have someone else take care of them wile I lived in some fancy ranch mansion that millions of horsepeople have paid for. I mean horsekeeping is money enough but to add things you HAVE to keep paying for in order to follow this clinician is not right.

Sorry to hear that you had a bad experience. I understand how you feel. I am in need of a "leader" or "mentor" as well and I think that I have found one.

As for being an uncapable horseowner - far from it it girl! Pat on the back for you because you admit that you need help and are not afraid to admit it. I had to have a long look in the mirror before I could admit to myself that I didn't know it all and that is a huge step.

It doesn't sound like you need to move, you just need to give yourself more credit. As for Fanny getting agitated on the lead line, well, you were agitated too and for good reason. From what you have told me about your leading adventure, you did very well. Fanny could have done without Angie but I am sure that Fanny will get over it.

You admitted that you need to have more leading lessons with Fanny, is there anyway an NH trainer could come to your current facility and help out? Is going to this other facility the only way that you can get the resources needed to learn? The other facility does sound better but again, are they going to push one trainers methods on you and make you feel uncomfortable if you use any other methods?

As for Parelli, as mentioned above, the methods are good, the commercializing isn't.

I hope that I was of some help as I am just rambling on here (ha ha). Keep us posted!

Poor Cyndi! You are a great horsewoman/owner because you have taken the responsibilty to learn all you can to ensure Fanny gets the care she needs. There are millions who don't have the confidence or see the need to keep studying to understand whats best for their horses. And how many people are thoughtful enough to get into natural horsemanship from the get go?! I wasn't!

I also struggle with confrontation and beign able to say the right thing at the right time. Sydney's phrase I think is brilliant to remember for the next time.

I know its hard but I think its also worth bearing in mind that this woman was probably trying to help in the best way she knew how.

I travel 25mins each way to my horse, but she lives at her owners' for free so... I knew a family who travelled 45mins-1hr each way once! I lived closer to their horses than they did! If its best for you and Fanny its worth it. If it were me I think I'd think about it a bit more, give yourself some time to get over the emotion and think about it clinically.

DO REMEMBER - we're all here for you, and we think you're doing great!

Ooh, my little story where I'm quite proud about standing up for myself and the horse in my care - the family mentioned above were moving away, taking the horse I'd been working with for them, with them Anyhoo, she was a 4y.o thoroughbred with separation anxiety who'd done no loading training.

Along comes transporter with man. All horses put on, leaving mine (Maggie) last as she was the most unreliable and we thought the mare she was attached to going on first was a good idea.

Maggie really didn't want to load. I was getting pretty tense but trying to stay calm as best I could and be gentle and patient. After some time, the man who's been looking at his watch and pacing etc, asked if I wanted a chiffney as he had one I could borrow! I swear I nearly fainted (I felt the blood drain from my face ), but despite his hurry to be off, and the fact that her owners were standing there and wouldn't have argued about using a chiffney, I said no it'll be fine, or words to that effect ( while thinking " You even show this horse a chiffney and I'll chiffney you!"), and shortly after she loaded, love her!

Gosh I've gotten all worked up again just thinking about it! I'd never use a chiffney on any horse but especially this one - her 'acting out' came in the form of rearing. She reared at everything new, difficult, that she didn't understand... that and a chiffney would be a oneway trip to disaster and a ruined horse. I was quite proud of myself

Thanks for all your support ladies!!!

Sydney, I applaud you for stepping up and 'calling' the vet on that sedative charge! Way to go! What a horrible experience. I hate when people walk right in and take over, even when they shouldn't. Would it have killed him to ask what techniques work best for Indigo, for keeping her calm??!! Often, people are in a rush to get things done as quickly as possible, even if it's not the right thing to do. The assistant sounds like she took the time to get to know Indigo, and was calm. The vet sounds like he was high-strung and just wanting to get the job done. Funny how horses react to different people. There was a farrier that I was going to use at my old barn, and Fanny shied away from him when he came over to ask me her name (so he could write it down before he worked on her). Someone else butted into the "waiting line" for the farrier and after waiting a couple of hours for him to be done, I finally had to leave...without him trimming Fanny. Turned out to be a blessing, as this guy eventually began hitting the horses. In the meantime, I had heard about my present farrier and called him up. He always talks gently to Fanny and pets/rubs her gently before he even begins working with her. My farrier is now the farrier for my old barn. They gave the other guy the boot.

HorseHippie...my prairie friend , I'm so happy that you've found a mentor/instructor. It's the day-to-day stuff that I'd like someone to observe, not just the 'mechanics' of the groundwork. I'm sure there are so many tiny ways that I allow Fanny to take control, but I just don't realize it. The Parelli lady I've been talking about will come to my place and work with Fanny and me, but it'll cost something like $60 an hour. It would probably be worth it, but...it's all so confusing.

Lightertouch, thanks for your very kind words! I know what you mean about giving it more time, before I quickly arrange to have Fanny moved to the Parelli barn - I was fueled by emotion. I was so discouraged on Sunday, when all this happened, then it turned to anger (both at Angie and at myself for letting her walk all over me), but now I think I am getting more of a sense of resolve to step up and be who I need to be for Fanny. I need to stick with my NH plan and if anyone asks questions in an impolite way, I have to stand up for what I believe!! They are free to believe what they want, and so am I.

And way to go with loading that mare!!! I will have to look up what a chiffney(?) is. Obviously, it's not something good Fanny has always loaded well, considering she's only had to do it twice in her life, and that was to come here and then to come to her new barn. I think I will get my riding instructor/trainer to come pick up Fanny when the time comes. I think he'll take the time to let me see if Fanny will load herself, rather than having to be led on. I'd love to find out if she'd do it on her own.

I had Fanny for seven months before I moved her to our new barn. After being here for six months, she will be heading off for two months of training. The last thing I want to do is keep moving her around to new barns. I have to sit down and really think hard about what I am looking for in a barn, and more importantly, what is best for Fanny.

I agree with the comments made about Parelli, that the methods are good, but the system and the money you need to spend just to keep up with them, is a little overboard. They never give out any info on their training, they always tell you to refer to 'this' or 'that' particular video, which you have to pay HUGE amounts for. Drives me crazy. I bought an Ed Dabney training video that shows me much of the Parelli games (Ed has a different name for them, but they are essentially the same), all on one video, and he shows you how to apply the methods to both ground work and in the saddle...and I paid way less than anything on the Parelli site.

Well...enough rambling. I need to go make a dessert for tonight...it's a frozen strawberry marguarita dessert. I have to use a frozen marguarita mix...but I'm not sure how strawberry and lime go together. Guess I'll find out.

Phew Cyndi, What a trauma! I have to admit that as I read your second post I was relieved as I was imagining something much worse than what actually happened. I agree with Lightertouch that the woman probably thought she was helping and obviously wasn't sensitive enough to realize the effect she was having on both of you.


I can't tell you what to do and I'm sure you will work things out in your own time but if this woman doesn't actually board at your barn, and if you and Fanny are happy with everything else, I'd be cautious about going somewhere else. Horses do take time to settle into new surroundings and you wouldn't be able to see her so much if she was further away. Also, there's no guarantee you wouldn't come across another Know-all at the new place.

I can't believe this woman thought it was OK to try to take over from you. I do know how you feel as I used to feel insecure around people like that but it might help if you stopped thinking too deeply about this. My mum, who lived through war torn Europe, had a happy knack of puting this sort of thing in perspective for me. Just think a lot of bad thoughts about this woman, curse her in your head, tell her to keep out of your life, and the next time you meet her, even though you might not actually say any of these things, the look in her eyes should make her back off! Good luck in what ever you choose to do.

Thanks Fin!

I am giving this whole thing a lot of thought. As far as I know, the neighbour has never come over to my barn, unless to talk to the barn owner about something, I suppose. She's never been over in the time that I've been there.

My hesitation with going to the Parelli barn is that it was this instructor that put a lot of horse fear into me when I was taking some lessons from her a year ago. She is super cautious about the dangers that can occur around horses. Not a bad thing, but with my being so new to this side of the horse world, I took it very seriously and became quite nervous around horses. I know that there are a few people at that barn who will not hesitate to tell me what I "need" to do.

The facility and how Fanny would be living at that barn are perfect, but it's the darned people that I have to deal with that are the problem!!! Why do some horses have to come with owners??!!

OOOOOOOO... where does that woman live? I'm gonna come and wrap a chain around her nose and see how she likes it. Makes my blood boil these 'dyed-in-the-wool' horsepeople. You are so nice, if she had done that to Kitty when Kitty was having a stupid moment I would have smacked her in the face. Then stamped on her foot. Then punched her in the kidneys...sorry, getting carried away here
It does make you feel awful when someone does something you KNOW is wrong and you are powerless to prevent it. Remember you know horses better than do most horse trainers - yes, really - poor Fanny wondering what was going on I bet she was glad to get back with being with you only. Don't move yards if that is your only problem there - think of a good retort next time she tries to 'help' and use it!!!!

I know how you feel. I am not the most confident person in the world and I know that my horses get away with way too much, but like you said, unless you have someone there to teach you the day to day stuff, you're on your own! My horses are perfect pupils in the arena but out in the pasture, yeah right.

And I know how you feel about the people at the boarding facility. I am in the same situation, but for me, it isn't that the people think they are better riders or trainers, but better owners in general. It gets to me sometimes but I just keep my chin up and realize that my horses are healthy and happy and that is all that matters!

The Parelli lady I've been talking about will come to my place and work
with Fanny and me, but it'll cost something like $60 an hour. It would
probably be worth it, but...it's all so confusing.

You know what even though I teach lessons I always take them from time to time and almost never from the same place. If I like an instructor and learnt a lot that lesson I might go back for another week or two. If I hear something good about a certain instructor I might take a lesson from them once or twice. There are only a few that I would go back to time after time that can teach me something both challenging, and useful every time.
I love going to clinics and listening to different trainers methods so if I were you I would splurge every once and a wile and have the $60 session. I think it would be worth it. After all you are going to be riding fanny in the end wouldn't it be worth it for both of you to be taught together than separately?

Dammit! Can't get pix up... check out links...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Chifney-Bit---Brass---5_W0QQitemZ270351687689QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090302?IM

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3130/2736951919_61b8d05aa1.jpg

Stainless Steel Chifney Anti-Rearing Bit, complete with English Leather headpiece/sliphead

• The Chifney bit is neither
  a snaffle nor a curb. In fact, it isn't used for riding at all - it is
  used for leading - originally designed to give handlers of highly
  strung horses and stallions more control when their charges tried to
  rear.
  
• It is fitted so the the
  straighter edged part acts as the mouth piece, with the rest of it
  encircling the horses jaw. Potentially, it gives a lot of leverage on
  the bottom jaw - and therefore must be used with care. However, horses respect it and it gives handlers control of the animal.
  
• A lot of professional transporters will use a Chifney on a horse that is difficult to load.
  
• Seen commonly at the races on highly strung thoroughbreds
  

The above is an Ebay description of the use of a chifney.

Yowza!!! I'd rather take the time I need to train my horse to lead properly than to use something like that.

You have got to be kidding....I can't believe things like this are on the market! Totally agree with you Cyndi, train the horse to lead instead of resorting to cruel gadgets like that! Yuck!

Cyndi,
I lead Trelawny out in a rope halter and long lead rope. We do the roads as well as woods etc. I too have had people try and interfere with my methods of leadership - you should do this, do that, you gotta get respect - well all it did was upset Trelawny, and upset me, and put us back several stages in the trust department. I wont ever let anyone near him again in this regard. I dont care if I am unconventional - I have a good relationship with my big horse and that is more important to me than anything. I am SO angry on your behalf about this woman.... and as everyone else has said - we all support you! At the end of the day Fanny is your horse, its your life, and its your partnership you have with your lovely girl. It has to develop and grow in a way thats suits you and Fanny - and nobody else. Listen and learn, take advice, but if it doesnt feel right for you - then dont do it. Gawd - if I ever got hold of that woman....

Ah ok I had an idea of what you were talking about. These are also known as stallion bits or anti rearing bit.
That one it is actually quite mild. I have seen ones with horrible ports on them and keys.

If a horse is that hard to get on the trailer and previous attempts at teaching a horse how to trailer have not happened I would rather see a horse sedated. This way if it is fearful it isn't going to bounce around in a trailer and hurt itself and it doesn't associate trailering with being injured by a bit and your own hands.
Shesh, the contraptions people create to harm or maim another animal.

Hi cyndi, just thought of something: Linda Tellington-Jones uses a chain on a headcollar in her training methods and, from what I've read about her methods, she's a really gentle trainer. She says you can give more precise instructions via the chain and I think what you described about using the stick to gain Fanny's attention is something that she uses.
Having said that, I don't think that Angie woman was doing the right thing jerking Fanny's head 'to get her attention' so I wouldn't trust her with a chain but thought I would mention what seems to be a more benevolent use of a chain. Never used it myself though as I prefer the knotted rope halters. Hope things are settling down with you. Fin